Training Improvement Café Episode 01: Transfer Effectiveness
In Roy's Training Improvement Café, Roy de Vries, Learning Innovator at aNewSpring explores how people really learn and what we as training experts can learn from that to keep improving our training.
In this very first episode of the renewed Training Improvement Café, Roy sits down with Britt Brackenie—co-founder of Route12 and passionate advocate of practical learning transfer. Together, they explore what really makes training stick and how to create learning experiences that actually lead to behavioral change at work.
💡 Spoiler alert: It’s not just about what happens in the training itself.
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Show notes
Episode 01 – Britt Brackenie on the 12 Levers of Transfer Effectiveness
In this very first episode of the renewed Training Improvement Café, Roy sits down with Britt Brackenie—co-founder of Route12 and passionate advocate of practical learning transfer. Together, they explore what really makes training stick and how to create learning experiences that actually lead to behavioral change at work.
💡 Spoiler alert: It’s not just about what happens in the training itself.
About Britt
Britt Brackenie is a co-founder of Route12 and helps L&D professionals design impactful learning journeys. With a background in Human Resource Management and a fascination for creating meaningful experiences, Britt now focuses on improving training transfer based on research by Dr. Ina Weinbauer-Heidel.
What you'll learn in this episode:
Why Britt once considered becoming a funeral coordinator (!)
How the 12 levers of transfer effectiveness help L&D pros create more effective programs
How to use the transfer card game to reflect on existing training
Why clear transfer goals beat traditional learning objectives
The role of managers and peers in successful transfer
Small changes with big impact, like writing letters to managers
Why “What’s your biggest takeaway?” might not be the best closing question
Episode highlights
[00:01:00] – Why Roy loves the topic of transfer
[00:05:00] – Britt’s “aha” moment that led to Route12
[00:10:00] – What are transfer goals, and how do they differ from learning goals?
[00:14:00] – Playing the transfer card game with a cybersecurity training case
[00:35:00] – Can you ever cover all 12 levers in one training?
[00:39:00] – Why a letter to the manager might work better than a letter to yourself
[00:44:00] – Britt’s take on the most overrated L&D advice
Resources mentioned
Britt’s inspirations
Julie Dirksen – blending learning science with behavioral science
Lavinia Mehedintu (Offbeat) – thought leader in L&D curation
Dr. Alaina Szlachta – specialist in evaluation and data-driven training improvement
Quick tips to apply right away
Try ending your next training with transfer planning, not just reflection
Get participants to write a letter to their manager with their key insights and next steps
Involve managers before and after training with simple 15-min conversations
Use transfer goals (not learning objectives!) to clarify desired behavior change
Listen to this episode
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Full transcript
Roy: Welcome everyone to the very first episode of the new Training Improvement Cafe here at the aNewSpring headquarters. In this series, we are gonna talk to learning professionals who have something to say, an expertise on a specific topic in learning, and we're searching for golden nuggets when it comes to training improvement, on helping people learn 'cause that's what we're aiming for here at aNewSpring.
And today I am joined by Britt Brackenie. Welcome Brit at the office in Rotterdam. And we're gonna deep dive into the topic of transfer. And transfer is, for me, one of the, one of the most important topics when it comes to learning, or at least one of the topics that I'm very interested in. A couple of years ago, I joined a session by Fergal Connolly.
He's a speaker. I joined him in, at Learning Solutions in Orlando, and he had a session about transfer, and I think it was one of the first times I really got in touch with the topic and what it meant. And he talked about communication with managers and communicating to the learners and, that whole triangle.
And not just communication during the training, but also before training. And that really was an eye-opener for me, that moment where I learned more about, alright, so it's not just about this one learning intervention that people do themselves it's the whole ecosystem around it that truly helps.
And then throughout the years, of course I got to know you, got to know your colleague, Ilona. And I'm very happy that we can today dive a bit deeper into the topic of, transfer. But before we start, we're in this cafe setting, first episode. Do you like it?
Britt: Yes, I like it. Yeah? Yes.
Roy: Okay.
Maybe introduce yourself a little bit.
Britt: Yes. I'm Britt Brackenie. Some people call me Britt Breckenie
Roy: For English people.
Britt: For English people, yes. I'm one of the co-founders of Route12, and, we help learning and development professionals by creating, impactful learning journeys.
Roy: Okay, so you develop them yourself, yourself as well.
Britt: I developed them myself, and I help learning and development professionals to create them as well.
Roy: Cool. Well, and then of course Route12 has something to do probably with the transfer topic, but we'll dive a bit deeper into that later. How did you get into the field of learning and development? Where did, how did you make your first steps?
Britt: That's a funny story I guess, because when I was 14 years old, I didn't know what I wanted to become.
Roy: As every teenager.
Britt: Yes, exactly. And I did a career test. And the results: a funeral coordinator.
Roy: Funeral coordinator. Alright. That's a specific job. Yeah.
Britt: Yes it is. And I was thinking about it.
Okay, maybe I can create unforgettable experiences.
Roy: Yeah. Because I was curious, what kind of competencies do you need as a funeral coordinator?
Britt: Yeah. You have to plan, organize, be empathetic to other people.
Roy: Yeah. Makes sense.
Britt: So it makes sense. Yeah. But the people that I know. That know me. They know that I'm way too emotional for that.
So I will probably cry louder than the grieving family. But this test taught me something. Okay. Maybe I love to create meaningful experiences for other people, and after a while I went to study human resource management and found my passion for learning and development and that's how it all started.
Roy: Cool. And human resource management is similar to learning and development, but still quite a different field. Why did you go into learning and development instead of human resources?
Britt: I didn't like sick people.
Roy: Okay. Yeah.
Britt: Reorganizations. Yeah. And I thought, okay, I love the positive approach that you can help people grow and that you help an organization to change.
So I found my topic and then I thought, this is it. I wanted to do this. Yes.
Roy: Perfect. Yeah. So then you worked as a learning and development specialist professional for a while, but then at
some point you found your real niche. You found out about Ina and transfer. Yes. Can you tell us a little bit about how that went?
Britt: I was working at an organization and I got a little bit of frustrated about the learning programs where I was involved because I saw participants struggle with applying what they've learned. They tried it, but at some point they were struggling to maintain. So I thought, okay. We need to do something different.
And I guess it's more like we need to do something in the work environment.
But I didn't know how I could influence that. So I tried a lot. I learned a lot. Yeah. Not everything was successful. But it, it got my interest. I wanted to know more.
Roy: You thought there's, more about this, there's more.
Than just happening in the classroom. Exactly. To take the bigger picture into account.
Britt: Yes. The whole context is important. And after a while I spoke to Ilona, now one of the other co-founders of Route12, and we shared the same passion for our fields and she mentioned, whoa, I saw a great model.
It's from Ina Weinbauer-Heidel, it's about training transfer effectiveness. And then, we dove into the model together. We wrote blogs about it and we gave workshops and we thought, okay, this is really helpful, for me, but also for other learning and development professionals. And then we thought, okay, let's do something with this. This topic,
Roy: Everyone needs to know about this.
Britt: Everyone needs to know about this. Exactly. And, it's based on research, it's practical. So.
Roy: Yeah, because I believe that Ina spent, you told me this before, about three years at her attic, just plowing through all the research that was available, finding all the little things about transfer and creating this big list.
Exactly right. Yes.
Britt: Yes. And she found more than 100 factors that influenced the transfer of learning. And then she was a little bit frustrated herself because she thought, okay, what can we do with 100 factors? So she narrowed it down to 12 to really look at, the, at the factors to see, okay, which one are nice to know, but which one are the most important?
And that make a significant difference. Yes. And and she now narrowed it down to 12 levers and that's the way it's more practical than 100 factors.
Roy: Definitely. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Cool. And, but then that's her research, the things that she's doing. How did you then ended up, doing it in the Netherlands?
Britt: Yeah. Yes, we spoke to Ina, when we found her model. And it's a funny story because she's a really lovely person and, at the end of the conversation we were asking her, maybe we can spread this transfer fire within the Netherlands. And then she, she had to think about it. But she was really positive and we followed the course, the transfer designer certification, and at the end she said to us, I want you to do this in the Netherlands.
So, that's how, it's how our collaboration started and that's the foundation of Route12.
Roy: Great. And until now, you've worked with quite some cool companies to, to spread the word. How is that going? Are people enthusiastic? Are they here eager to work with it, or is it still difficult to get people to apply the transfer into their practice?
Britt: No, it isn't.
Roy: It isn't. Okay.
Britt: We did a road trip, last month, to find out how impactful our learning interventions are. And we found out that even a workshop of three hours will make a big difference for learning a development professionals. So they are really applying all those transfer research and make it practical and influence the effectiveness of their training program. So I was really proud to hear that.
Roy: Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah. But it's also, of course, I assume that you do a lot of practice what you preach.
So you put a lot of the transfer effectiveness tips and tricks into your own training to make sure that it, yeah.
Alright, so it works. People are happy when you tell 'em about the transfer and you put it all into practice. Practice what you preach and you tell people, why it works and they start working with it.
Maybe we can dive a little bit deeper into those 12 levers and what they mean. And I wanna start off with asking you, which one is your favorite?
'cause we have 12, and I can imagine all 12 are important. Which one is your favorite?
Britt: That's a really good question. Thanks. I don't know that I have a favorite one. I like them all.
Roy: You like them all? Of course. Yeah. That's the political correct answer. Which one do you apply most?
Britt: which one do I,
Roy: or do you like the most?
Britt: Maybe not do I like the most, but the one where I always start with is clear expectations. Alright. For me, it's such an important thing to start with, okay, what are the desired outcomes? What do you want people to do different, differently in their jobs?
So, it's the starting point. To make transfer happen that you know what you're aiming for.
Roy: But that's really at the beginning from, the, first analysis part. The clear objectives, should be clear from the beginning.
Britt: Yes. Yes. So it's, I don't think it's my favorite one, but it's definitely the first one where I, yeah I want to start with.
Roy: The most important one.
Britt: Yes. The most important one for me.
Roy: And then, is it about the, learning objectives? Is that a word that you use? 'cause I also heard you say something about behavior.
Britt: Yes.
Roy: Is it more the behavior objectives?
Britt: Transfer. For me, it's like you aim for behavioural change. You want people to do something differently. So I'm talking not about learning goals, but about transfer goals.
Roy: Okay.
Britt: And impact. That you want to achieve on the organisational side.
Roy: Which is quite a mindset shift I think, for people. 'cause we're so drilled into learning objectives and, using Bloom and making it all smart and those kind of things is, I think transfer goals. Is there a different approach when it comes to transfer goals?
As in, do you write them differently? Is it, how do you work with these goals?
Britt: Yeah, so that's a good question. I think, if you are looking at transfer goals, you want, if the participants will read your transfer goals, then you want them to think, okay, this is what is expected from me.
So that they can imagine what it's like to do after a training session to act differently.
Roy: So very concrete, not too abstract.
Like what we're sometimes used to as people who design training can create some abstract learning objectives is really, you need to visualize it almost as a learner.
I think it might not be fun to like go over all these 12 levers and I think you've got a lot of resources you are already talking about that we'll include in the show notes as well to make sure that people can look at all the stuff that you've created about transfer already, but you did bring something to practice with and to showcase, right? Exactly. Something you use in your daily practice as well often I believe.
Britt: Yes, it's the card game of the 12 levers.
Okay. And Ina is a great person. She makes transfer really practical. And one of the things and the tools that she gives to the people that follow her programs is the card game. And you can use it in all kinds of ways. So you can use it at the beginning when you are just designing a program.
And you can think of, okay, how can we make sure that these levers are covered in our program? But you could also use an existing program and review it. Yeah. With the 12 levers. So there are more ways of doing the card game. Would you like to try out?
Roy: Yeah, please. Let's, let's give it a try. What do I need to do?
Britt: We need to have a learning program or an intervention.
Roy: A case study.
Britt: Yes.
Roy: So let's act like we didn't prepare this beforehand. Let's take, let me think about it. Let's take a cybersecurity case.
Britt: Okay.
Roy: Cause of course at aNewSpring we're ISO certified and we need to be very cautious with all the data that we have going on here at the office and with our customers and those kind of things.
So, that's why every year you have this cybersecurity training to be more aware about the risks that, are going on when you use a computer, when you use the internet, and when you work with data. And I think, well, hopefully that resonates with people who are watching as well, because they also have those kinds of mandatory courses. And I'm thinking about one of them that we did, a couple of years ago. So I think that would be a good one to start with. Let's use that one.
Britt: Okay. Can you explain a little bit more about the design? Was it face-to-face intervention or it was more online?
Roy: Well, it was, a good question. It was in covid times, so, we did it online and it was sort of an escape room game type of training. I think it lasted for about an hour. We worked in teams and, it was through this, website, I believe that they, developed for this course.
Britt: That sounds nice!
Roy: Right? Yeah. It immediately got my attention and motivation as well. 'cause I was like, ooh, games. That's nice. Yeah.
Britt: But was it effective?
Roy: Yeah, that's the, that's a good question.
Britt: Do you still apply those learnings?
Roy: Yeah, maybe not very actively, as in, I don't think about it often, but I do
think that, it gave some pointers into where to pay attention to when it comes to cybersecurity and how you take better care of data and stuff.
So it did, yeah. It's not that I think about it daily, but it did help. Yeah.
Britt: Okay. Now let's try.
Roy: Alright, cool. Let's see. You've got a card game here. 12 levers of transfer effectiveness. It has the, logo on it. I see. 'cause not everyone will watch this show. They will maybe listen to it. So that's why we're gonna be a little bit explicit about what we see and what we're gonna do.
So you have some cards?
Britt: Yes.
Roy: Cool.
Britt: Let me explain a little bit about the card game. Yeah. The 12 leaders of transfer effectiveness are divided into three parts, the training participants, the training design, and the organisational parts.
Yeah.
Britt: And I'm going to ask you 12 questions and you can decide which one or which lever are well covered in the cybersecurity intervention and which one.
Roy: Well, okay.
Britt: And we have a few thumbs. Yeah, the green one.
Roy: A green thumb. So that's probably good.
Britt: You can imagine.
Roy: Yeah.
Britt: The yellow one.
Roy: Yeah. That's when it's not really, but also in the middle,
Britt: There are some points for improvement, but you do something right.
Roy: Okay. Yeah.
Britt: And the red one.
Roy: And the red one. Alright, so that's when it's totally not covered at all.
Britt: Exactly. It's super easy and I'm going to ask you the first question. Yeah. It's about transfer motivation.
And I'm really curious, if you look back at the intervention, at the end of the intervention, how motivated were you to apply those learnings in your work?
Roy: Ooh, that's a good question. In the training, what they did quite well was that they put some emphasis on the risks that you can get when you do something wrong, when it comes to cybersecurity and data, what can come out of it. So, they made us quite aware of those risks, which, in the end, followed by quite some motivation to prevent those risks from happening of course. So, yeah, I think especially right after the training was quite motivated to, to put everything into practice.
Britt: It was relevant. You feel the urgency?
Roy: I felt the urgency. Yeah. Definitely.
Britt: So green.
Roy: Yeah, let's put it at green. Yeah. Okay, great.
Britt: The next one is self-efficacy.
So, I'm curious about, did you have a, did you believe in your ability that you could master the skills, like the cybersecurity insights that you gained?
Did you think, okay, I can do this in my work, I can put this into practice.
Roy: Well, I don't want to sound too arrogant, but, as being a digital native, I felt that some of the things were a little bit too obvious and that I already had the confidence that I would be quite good.
So, the self-efficacy was already there, but I think the most important thing for me was just to have this, this refresher to gain some extra insights and see it all again, to reassure that I was already doing the things right. So it was just a reassuring course instead of really building my confidence.
Okay. So, yeah, I would maybe put it, yeah, green is a good one, I think. Yeah. 'cause
Britt: It sounds like green. Okay. It sounds good.
Roy: You're the professional, so it sounds good. Alright, let's do that.
Britt: The next one is transfer volition. And I'm curious if you think back at the end of the training, were you committed during your transfer process to think, okay, I need to stay on the ball, I need to maintain to apply these insights in my work.
Roy: I think the difficult thing with the cybersecurity training is that you have this at, one point, but then it's possible that for a couple of months nothing really happens, that you don't really have big things that, you know, of course it's good to always be aware, but the real, like, for example, the email that you get from someone that you shouldn't click on a link. It's not that it happens the next day, it can happen in a couple of months.
So, of course, after the training, I was quite, I knew quite a bit about all these different topics again.
But it was difficult to maintain that and to make sure that we kept it top of mind all the time, so, and we also didn't do a lot of training afterwards with that.
Britt: So, no follow up?
Roy: Not, no, not really a follow up.
Britt: Where do you want then?
Roy: I, the volition, I would like to have that at the yellow.
Britt: Yeah.
Roy: Okay. Alright. So these, first three, they're about the participant and about the motivation. Yes. And self-efficacy of the participant. Alright.
Britt: Yes. Two green.
Roy: One yellow.
Britt: Yes. Okay.
Roy: It's not too bad.
Britt: It's not too bad. Alright, let's continue with the training design.
Roy: Training design. Okay.
Britt: Okay. If you look back, before the intervention, did you know what you could expect?
Roy: Not so much. We knew that there was training coming. We knew that we had to reserve some time for this intervention, but there wasn't a lot shared about the goal, about what we were gonna do. I think that was by design, 'cause if you give away too much what's in the training, then it maybe doesn't have the effect as you want it to have.
If I have to answer the question, I would say no. 'cause I didn't really have clear objectives and clear outcomes, no.
Let's put it at red . Yeah. Yep.
Britt: I understand it, red. Okay. Content relevance is the next one. Did you find the content that they use during the intervention relevant to your day-to-day job?
Roy: I think they used quite some examples that we could find in our day-to-day job. And of course there were some puzzles. I believe there was also something with a bank or something that didn't really resonate. But there were also quite some examples that did, like what I said about the email coming from the CEO, that's not really from the CEO, that's something that happens.
So they really, did a good job there. But overall it was quite general as well, generic. So it wasn't specified for our specific case. But still,
Britt: Maybe in the middle?
Roy: I would put it in the middle. Yeah, so content relevance.
Britt: Yes. Okay. The next one is active practice. And if you look back at the intervention, were there enough moments that you could really try out the things that you need to do in your work afterwards?
Roy: That's a good question. 'cause it was a game of course. So, it was with some puzzles and, things. I would say, yes. Yes. I think they, 'cause they made it an experiential learning experience. I think they gave us quite some moments to really practice with it and to really.
Britt: For example, the email from your boss, what did you do? What did you have to do with that?
Roy: Well, you had to, you had your own mail program. And you had to go in there and you had to find an email and you had to review that email and see, right, so what's the content? And who was it from, and those kind of things.
And then. Without them telling you where to go, you really had to find those things yourself. So that was one-on-one, how it also happens in real life of course.
Britt: It sounds like active practice.
Roy: Yeah.
Britt: Yes. Great. Put it on the green?
Roy: Yeah. Table's getting quite filled. And luckily for the cybersecurity trading a lot of greens. So that's good.
Britt: That's good. The last one within the training design is transfer planning. Did you leave the intervention with a concrete plan about what you were going to do, what you were going to implement in your work and specific actions?
Roy: No. No, it was, I think, we left thinking there was a nice game that, that some good activities in it. Interesting, nice awareness. Let's move on.
Britt: Red? Okay. Did it on the red.
Roy: No real planning.
Britt: No real planning.
Roy: But I can see why it's important.
Britt: Do you see, do you experience what it does to talk about this important topics?
Roy: Yeah. Yeah. I think it really lays down the, gaps you have in the training and just having it so explicitly with all these different cards and have, 'cause the 12 levers, I know them, but I don't know by heart. And this really makes it explicit so no doub it works. Yeah. Hello Mickey. So apologies to the viewers if we don't cut this out. This is our dog Mickey, from our CEO and, I mean, we're in a cafe, so those things happen. Of course. Alright, so that's the two topics. Yes. And now we have a third one.
Britt: Yes. The category of the organization.
So this is my favorite part.
Roy: Yeah. Why?
Britt: Yes. Because it all started with me asking, how can I influence the work environment?
And these are the important levers that influence the training effectiveness
that are in the work environment. So I love this one.
The first one is opportunities for application. I think cybersecurity... do you think there were enough opportunities for you to apply those?
Roy: Well, of course you want to not have those opportunities. 'cause if you have too many of those opportunities, something's wrong with your security.
I do recall that somewhere, I don't know if it was before or after the training, we did have this sort of phishing mail come in and then it was a test from, but I'm not sure if it was related to the training.
Britt: That would be a great idea.
Roy: Yeah. I think looking at transfer, that would've been, that would've been amazing if they deliberately planned it that way. But no, there wasn't really an opportunity to practice afterwards. It was not that they gave us that opportunity, it just, yeah, no.
Britt: And not that it happens in your work that often.
Roy: No, not that often, no.
Britt: Where do you want them?
Roy: Yeah, let's put it at red.
Britt: The next one is personal transfer capacity.
And it's like, do, did you feel that you had enough time in your work routines and schedules to be on top of this topic that you thought, okay, I have enough time to implement this in my work?
Roy: That's a good question. I'm not sure. I think that we, it's of course a bit difficult with cybersecurity. I mean, if we would've talked about giving feedback, then you would've searched for an opportunity to do that. And with cybersecurity it was more about the awareness and about making sure that you know what the risks are and how to mitigate those risks.
So also with this one, no, I don't think it was in the design of the training as well.
Britt: Maybe there was enough time for you to put into practice what you've learned, but for this topic it's more difficult because it doesn't happen at all.
Roy: Yeah, exactly. I would put it at, at orange. Yeah.
Britt: Okay.
Roy: Yeah, that's a good point.
Britt: Next one is support from supervisors. A really important one you mentioned before. Did you feel encouraged by your supervisor to be really
Roy: on top of the,
Britt: on top of this cybersecurity?
Roy: Yeah. I think, I think most team leads here in aNewSpring, they were aware of the importance and did stress it and made sure that also beforehand they talked about how important the training was and that you should really be there and also afterwards reflected on the training.
So yeah, I would say that they did quite a good job when it comes to that.
Britt: On before and after they were there to communicate and to reflect with you. Okay?
That sounds good. Yeah. Green I guess?
Roy: Yeah, let's put it at green. I love that one by the way, supporting supervisors. Yeah. Let's see.
Britt: It's a really, yeah, it is a really good one.
Roy: Yeah.
Britt: Yes. The next one is support from peers.
Roy: Oh, yes.
Britt: And that's a funny one, I guess, within this context, because you followed it with all your colleagues. That's really good.
But, how does it look like when you were back on the job? Did you help each other to implement this?
Roy: I think yes.
Because we were all more aware of the risk things that could happen. So I recall that after the training a couple of weeks later, in our communication channel, someone posted about the possible email that was going around that we shouldn't click on something. So, I think that way people also made each other aware of the risks and the things that we had learned. I think that people right after the training were also more busy with, making sure that everything was in order and paid more attention to being careful with data stuff. So, yeah. I think that was quite well. Oh, we don't have space. No.
Let's put it on support for supervisor there. Halfway. Yeah, that's perfect.
Britt: Social support.
Roy: Social support. Exactly.
Britt: We put them together,
Roy: Buy a bigger table.
Britt: Exactly. The last one is transfer expectations in the organisation.
And, was it clear what you you needed to do after the training in your work for all the people in the organization?
Roy: Yeah, I think that was, I think this is one of the clearest ones, right? Because I think the people that organized training had quite a good objective with what they wanted to achieve.
And afterwards, we of course also reflected not just in the teams, but also with
the company on what the importance of the things that we just saw were, and how we should act in the company and how it relates to the ISO certification that we have to stress the importance.
So, yeah, I think they did quite a, good job on the expectation, like what do you, what do we expect from you when it comes to cybersecurity and making sure that you use and handle your data well? Yeah.
Britt: Okay, Roy, and if you didn't apply, what were the consequences for you?
Were the consequences if you would apply or wouldn't?
Roy: Yeah, I think of course there weren't real personal consequences. It's not that if you do something wrong that you get fired or anything. But I think the stressing the importance of an ISO certification, of handling data carefully, of being aware of what happens online, that's very important.
And we knew that if we would do something wrong, that would have an impact on our incidents, that would've an impact on our certification. So yeah, in the end, we knew that even though it wasn't personal, the consequences would be there for the company and we also wanted to prevent that.
Britt: Sounds good. It sounds like this is also a green one.
Roy: Yeah. Let's put it there. Yeah. Alright. So, when I'm looking at the table, you've got six green ones, three yellow ones, and three red ones.
Britt: And I'm curious if you had to pick two.
Which one do you think are most important to improve?
Roy: For this specific cybersecurity training?
Britt: What would've helped you to become more effective.
Roy: Yeah. I think one of the most important things, that we also already mentioned is a follow up. So not just having this one hour training and then not doing anything with it and waiting until someone sends an email and you just have to dig deep and how did that work again?
And so I think putting, following up and, creating a little bit more of the activity spread out over time. That would've helped. I think that was, yeah, opportunities for application.
Britt: Maybe we should create more opportunities. Yeah, exactly. So that the people of the intervention would've sent more fishing meals to you.
Roy: For example, yeah, or sometimes send some reminders or some questions, or at least do something to keep it top of mind.
Britt: Okay. For me's that, we create more opportunities for application, but also your transfer volition. To stay on the ball, you may have to have those situations.
Reminders to be on top of this cybersecurity awareness.
Roy: Sounds good.
Britt: Okay. What do you think? It's a quick analysis.
Roy: It's a quick showcase to demonstrate, of course, but yeah, I like the way how we went through all the levers in such a playful way. I liked how you phrased the questions, how you immediately connected that to our example, and it really got me thinking about the training in a good way and even reflect a bit on it as well. So, yeah, I like this way of putting levers under your attention.
Britt: Cool, me too. It also helps me to know more about your context, so...
Roy: I can imagine, and I can definitely imagine that it helps in,
like real work situations where you talk to customers who need to apply this better.
Britt: I use this method during my intakes to, see, okay, which levers are getting this organization most challenging? Where do I need to focus on? But also when you start designing with other learning and development professionals, even subject matter experts, this is really helpful because everyone, can relate to these topics.
So, once I did it with a subject matter expert and he immediately got 100 ideas how they can influence their training effectively. So, it's funny to see how something practical like this card game really helps to have a good conversation but also brainstorming together.
And when I'm asking you the question, if you want to pick two levers that you want to focus on and I give you the, how do you say it?
Roy: Yeah, the ownership.
Britt: The ownership.
So it's a great way to collaborate together and make things more effective.
Roy: Yeah and explicit.
Yeah, definitely.
Would you say from your experience, that you need to address all 12 leavers?
Britt: No, no. We can answer: no.
Roy: That's good.
Britt: If you have a crucial learning program for a lot of people within the organisation where you put a lot of effort and money in, then it's really good to cover all those 12 levers, and to think about it.
But in practice we experience that it's more like, okay, which one is the most challenging within our context? And what can we do about it? And sometimes, we think we do not have the influence but there's always one thing that we can do.
Roy: So it's also about small incremental steps and not just immediately applying everything, but already implementing one of the levers is already helping in improving your training.
Britt: Exactly. Yes. And it's about experimenting with that. So for example, transfer planning, you mentioned before during our other conversations that
you experiment with, action planning.
It's one of the easiest things that we can do that can increase the transfer effectiveness of our training programs.
So, if we think we can't do anything, start with transfer planning.
Roy: Okay, that's a good tip. That's a key tip. Yeah.
Alright, so we are nearing the end, of our conversation in this amazing cafe. There's a couple of last things that I wanna want to address with you. During the card game, we've already discussed a couple of the, low hanging fruit, quick wins, people can apply.
If the people that are listening or watching now should implement something tomorrow in their training to improve their training, small iterative improvement, what would you recommend they start with?
Britt: I already mentioned transfer planning, so
Roy: Another one.
Britt: I pick another one. Yes, a thing that we know from transfer research and practical experience is that the involvement of the manager is really important.
So one thing that I tried out a few months ago is instead of the letter to yourselves, you can ask your participants to write a letter to the manager.
Roy: Okay. Yeah. Because we know the letter that you sent to yourself of course and you reflect.
Britt: Yes. You send it afterwards.
Roy: And send it to someone else, to your manager.
Britt: Exactly. Make it more transfer proof.
Roy: Okay and what should be in that letter?
Britt: Three things, the most valuable insights from the training. So for example, from the cybersecurity intervention, something that really stuck with you. With what resonates with you.
The second thing is that you want them to share their ideas for implementation. So what kind of ideas do you have to implement in your work?
And the last one is specific concrete steps you want to take. So also a little bit of transfer planning and then you send it to your manager.
And there's no manager who is not going to have a meaningful conversation afterwards. So this is a really simple, easy way to get the managers on board. And, we know that, even a 15 minute conversation before and after is improving the effectiveness of the training. So this is a really simple way to do that.
Roy: Almost a no brainer.
Britt: No brainer.
And you do not have to have the contact details. 'cause sometimes learning and development professionals, mention to me. Okay, I do not have the contact details of the manager. So how can I get them involved? In this way you influence them via the participants.
Roy: So it's a very scalable exercise as well. Exactly.
Britt: And you can make it fun. With all kinds of postcards on a table, and then they can pick one.
Roy: Oh yeah, I was thinking about an email. But you can of course, just get a postcard and just write something and then put it in an inbox or something somewhere.
Yeah.
Britt: Yes. And maybe within an e-learning module you can also ask them to, to do this exercise.
Roy: Awesome. I think that's a great tip.
And then of course, you've been sharing a lot of your insights, very inspiring, but I'm very curious, where do you get your inspiration from? 'cause there's probably also people in the learning space that really inspire you to get the most out of yourself, to keep on experimenting with new things.
If you can name one person that people who are watching or listening should also follow. Or two, ah,
Britt: two. One, two. One or two. Oh, okay. Three.
Okay. Okay. Wait.
Roy: Let's start with one.
Britt: Start with Julie Dirksen. Because she combines, science of learning with behavioral science, and I really like the combination.
Roy: Yeah. I can second that.
Britt: The next one is Lavinia from Offbeat.
Roy: Okay. Yeah. Shout out to Lavinia.
Britt: Shout out to Lavinia. She shares a lot of good content about a broader perspective within learning and development. And she creates all kinds of activities for learning and development professionals, so she's really good at it. And I love her content, so she sends a weekly newsletter and always that I think: wow, you're so good at it.
Roy: Cool. Alright, third one.
Britt: Okay, can I do it, can I do it?
Roy: The first two. Now I'm really, excited to hear about the third one as well.
Britt: I guess it's Elena, but I don't know if I pronounce it right, but she sends a newsletter, it's called The Weekly Measure. It's about evaluation, getting the data. And, I followed one of her sessions at ATD last year and she really inspired me, about how you can collect data during your training interventions and help, get insights in what you should do next to help them to be more effective.
Roy: Alright. So you're talking about Dr. Alaina Szlachta?
Britt: Yes.
Roy: Alright, well cool. We've got something cool coming up, but, we'll not share about that too much, so. Alright. So we've got Julie, we've got, Lavinia and Alaina.
Britt: Yes.
Roy: Awesome. We'll share the details and everyone can start following them on later. Last but not least. Give me a number between one and 10.
Britt: I thought you would say one and 12.
Roy: That would've been, that would be perfectly fine. But then if you would've said 12, I don't have anything. So it's a number between one and 10.
Britt: I say two because Jessie is two, my son.
Roy: Because your son is 2-year-old. Alright.
Well, what I did. I came up with some random learning questions, and of course just a little bit of AI to help me with that. To brainstorm, to be creative. I came up with 10 questions and you picked number two.
Britt: Oh, no.
Roy: So what's one piece of conventional training advice that you secretly think is overrated? Or maybe even wrong. And I'm gonna give you some time to think about that. So conventional, something that we always do, we keep on doing of what you think. I wish we would just stop that. Don't do that anymore.
Britt: For me, before I got to know this transfer research and all these levers I followed a lot of courses. And, I know the moments when you say to, or, I got the question: okay, Britt, what's your biggest takeaway? And then you leave. And then the end is there. So let's stop with that. Just a simple question.
Roy: Not at the end: what's your biggest takeaway?
Britt: You can ask it, make it, more in depth. And what are you going to do with your biggest takeaway?
Roy: I think that's a nice one. So put more emphasis on what are you gonna do with it. Instead of just what did you learn? What did you take away from it.
Britt: Yeah, exactly.
Roy: Okay, cool. Well, Britt, thank you so much for your great insights and your amazing knowledge sharing on transfer. I wish you all the best together with Ilona, with Route12 and with Britt Leert of course. And, I'll definitely keep on following you and, hope to see you again.
Britt: Thank you, Roy. Thanks. It was lovely to be here.
Roy: Alright, thanks everyone for listening or watching to the first episode of the renewed Training Improvement Cafe. Hope you enjoyed it. Let us know what you thought about it, what you think about it and hope to see you at the next one as well. So have a great day and keep on improving.